To follow up with my little rant in the Image 9 thread: I don't believe these verses are linear maps to the casques. There are directions to the location in them, but not necessarily in any order whatsoever. This is why it is difficult to pinpoint the locations of these casques, even though we pretty much know which cities and states most of them are in because of confirmers in the images, latitudes and longitudes and iconic imagery. So, I have decided to start a thread that will pick apart these verses and separate the real directions from the "extra" stuff--literary references, obscure items, non-directional statements, etc. And I'm not going to do it linearly either. Here's my first one: VERSE 2 First of all, this verse is probably New Orleans--because there are two really strong associations in it that point to that city: "The place where jewels abound" "Here is a sovereign people who build palaces to shelter their heads for a night!" That first line is a reference to several things in NO--jewels that are tossed around during Mardi Gras, an entire neighborhood where all the streets are named after jewels, the nickname for the city itself. The second line is a direct quote from a book by Sarmiento and refers directly to New Orleans. It would seem ridiculous to put this quote into any other location's verse and I don't believe it does refer to any other place, therefore, this verse matches that city. Skipping the middle of the verse, you can drop down to the last four lines: "Gnomes admire Fays delight The namesakes meeting Near this site." Okay, Gnomes=earth. Earth=ground. Fays are fairies. Fair folk. Fay=fairy. Put them together and you get "FAIR GROUND" You can put those together closer, and get Fairgrounds, or you can leave them the way they are. But New Orleans does have a Fairgrounds Race track, quite famous, quite an iconic part of the city. And I would say with certainty that "Fairgrounds" is a pretty good namesake for Fays and Gnomes. Now go back to the middle: "In the middle of twenty-one" Well, obviously you're supposed to count something here. But what? It's not clear. But in the middle of 21 would either be in the center of 21 things randomly placed, (i.e. trees?) or it might be in a line--in which case the "middle" would be the eleventh thing. "From end to end" Does this mean that the twenty-one somethings are in a line? Not necessarily. It could mean something else. Some other thing is visible that has two distinct ends. Might be a road--a path--a street--or it might be a trail, an alley, a building--it might be anything. It also might be a wall, or fence. "Only three stand watch" Again--three what? Not clear. The three might be in a line--or they might NOT be. They might be three of anything. "As the sound of friends Fills the afternoon hours" I would not try to use this line to pinpoint a location for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that any city anywhere in the world probably has some place or some location where friends could meet and make noises. This line is far too ambiguous and vague. The only thing that I think it might be referring to is that this is a relatively public place. Like a park. It seems obvious and broad. Back to the beginning: "Fifteen rows down to the ground" This is fairly specific. But rows means what? rows of masonry or bricks? Rows of seats? Whatever it's rows of, they go from some height to the "ground" and they travel in a downward trajectory. So the chances of them being anything other than seats, benches, bricks, masonry or the like is probably slim. I don't think they are rows of flowers (since flowers are already planted IN the ground,) I don't think they are fence POSTS, but they might be fence BOARDS--if those boards are placed horizontally. They are likely something that you can clearly count and see as ROWS. So to sum up: The specific directions are these: 15 rows down to the ground in the middle of 21 I believe they need to be taken together to locate a casque. We must COUNT--like the Chicago solution made you count the trees. Like the Cleveland Solution made you count the rows of bricks. This narrows down some scenarios. You would have a difficult time counting rows if you were counting the "21" items in a random pattern. Unless--there was some specific ROWED item in the middle of 21 things. Here's what i mean: at Lafayette Park there are 21 live oak trees and a wall with many rows of bricks. BUT---that wall is NOT in the "middle" of the live oaks, and it may or may NOT have 15 rows you can count. What IS in the middle of 21 in that park is a statue--and interestingly enough, it DOES have 15 "rows" of steps winding up through the flower beds that surround it. But there's a problem with that too--no casque is buried in a public flower bed. And there's no other place to bury it. There is nothing else in the park that has "rows"  and "21"  So as tempting as Lafayette Park itself is, (and it is tempting--because the Image 7 clock-boy is there!) it must be somewhere ELSE. That park is very tempting, however, for other reasons too: LaFAYette -- means "little fairy" (a namesake!) and "the sound of friends fill the afternoon hours" there everytime they have a jazz concert--which are a tradition there. Also, it was one of the first planned parks in the city. Now the other solution that might be productive is Fairgrounds Racetrack. It is ALSO a namesake, for both of the mentioned creatures this time, not just one--its gates have scrollwork that mirrors the scrollwork of the clockhands in Image 7; the checkered background in the image could also say "racing flag" and yes, I realize that the checkered flag does not really get used much in horse racing, but it still says "racing" as an ICON--the clock boy mirrors the McDonogh statue boy, but it also looks a bit like a jockey because it's wearing a jockey's cap, the gate posts are similiar to the clock shape in the image--the little figure of the animal head in the bottom right corner could be a wolf, OR it could be a HORSE-- --and three do stand watch at the fairgrounds--there are three famous racehorses buried in the infield. Where are the rows? Where is the 21? I don't know. But it has possibilities. Okay, that's my analysis for Verse 2. I'd like to hear comments on this method, and this analysis. Good AND bad.

Well lets see, (reaching for my copy of the Secret. Chicago - Starting where 1) M&B are set in stone. 220 S Michigan Ave 2) and to Congress. Corner of S. Michigan and E. Congress Plaza Dr 3) R is known Roosevelt University 4) L sits and Left beyond his shoulder - over the left shoulder of the statue of lincoln north of E congress in Grant Park 5) Is the Fair Folk's Treasure Holder 6) The end of ten by thirteen an array of trees in the corner of the park past lincolns left shoulder 7) is your clue Fence and Fixture borders the array of trees. 9) Central too between the fence and the fixture against the north wall 10) Seek the sounds of Rumble the spot is next to a rail line 11) Brush and Music North of the site is the Art school, East of the site is the music stand 12) Hush - unknown perhaps an admonition to be stealthy when recovering the casque So lets examine this.  Lines 5, 7 and 12 do not seem to be directions of any kind, instead they are filler to make the verse rhyme. Leaving 1,2,3,4,6,8,9,10,11  Lines 1,2,3,4,6, are linear and can be plotted in order on a map. But at the point of 8 you have reached the casque location, lines 8 9 10, and 11 all confirm your location but can theoretically be taken in any order. However they do work in the order given. So for this verse, Shecrab's non-linear analysis of verses -gets a "sort of"

Now lets check cleveland. 1) Beneath two countries [i] this indicates between two areas in the clevleand Cultural Gardens, Greek and Germany (Ithink) [/i] 2) As the Road Curves This describes the road next to the gardens 3) In a Rectangular plot this describes the casque location 4) Beneath the tenth stone specific location 5) From Right to left specific location 6) Beneath the ninth row from the top specific location 7) of the wall including small bricks specific location Seven steps up you can hop describes the path from the German side of the garden 9) From the Bottom Level (from the street on the german side) 10) Socrates, Pindar, Appelles names carved on wall in the garden 11) Free Speech, couplet, birch, I totally forget this one. 12) to find casques destination, paired with the next2 lines 13) Seek the columns tells you where to start and identifys the greek garden 14) For the Search So lets examine this one Line 1 and 2 describes the general area Line 3-7 describes the exact location of the casque Line 8 and 9 describe the location of the casque from the German side of the garden Line 10 and 11 describe things you pass in the greek side of the garden Lines 12-14 describe where you start on the greek side of the garden So for this verse Shecrab's non-linear analysis of verses is absolutely correct.

So my review of Shecrab's non-linear analysis of verses is this. BP has demonstrated both methods of verses both linear(mostly) and non-linear So it will be important to take into account when analyzing the unfound verses that they might not describe a linear journey. Another important note - in both the found verses there are at least two lines in each that seem to simply be there to make the verse rhyme, as they had no bearing on the actual casque location. Personal note- Shecrab, I thought your idea was totally bogus, and I went to analyze the verses to basically prove how wrong you were, however I was totally wrong and you are absolutely correct.

This is a great discussion, and some really thoughtful verse-breakdowns, MF. Once in the city, lines 1 and 2 of both verses bring you to a starting place, and the verse can be followed from there. In hindsight, when starting from the correct place and looking around for terms/objects associated with the verse, the purpose of each line becomes clear - and thus gives clear directions. The pseudo-chaotic order of the verses wouldn't be that confusing. I'd also offer that it really does seem that - other than for figuring out the city - the images are not needed. Even seek the columns would/could have been interpreted correctly without the visual "confirmer." What is most interesting to me is the vagueness in the Chicago verse with regards to the casque's exact spot. In contrast, the Cleveland verse is quite specific. By concluding that the exact spot might be described as inadequately as [paraphrase] "central to the trees and fence near the railroad tracks and museum," I think that lit by lamplight might be as specific as verse 3 gets.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I'd also offer that it really does seem that - other than for figuring out the city - the images are not needed. Even seek the columns would/could have been interpreted correctly without the visual "confirmer." What is most interesting to me is the vagueness in the Chicago verse with regards to the casque's exact spot. I think the exact placement was actually indicated by line 6 - The end of ten by 13 if you were there in 1982, think lining up the ten trees and then lining up the 13 trees gives you two crossing lines that narrow the spot down to just a couple square feet. Also I want to disagree that the images are not needed except for the city. I understand what you are saying in Chicago they basically jumped straight to Lincoln, but I think most people would have used the bowman as a landmark to start looking at the verse. but in cleveland it was the greek imagery that took egbert to the greek cultural garden. without the image, there is no way he could have gotten there.  Unless you knew the names Socrates, Pindar and Apelles were in that specific park it would be too much of a reach to get there. I will point out my efforts in SF, I mean we have accepted for years that there is a casque in SF. and we have tried verse 7 (and the others ) all over the city with no luck. however after finding more clues in the image I am sure I have the treasure ground located. But at this point I still cant be sure which verse it is. only more digging will tell.  but in this case it was the image that got me close. So Like your non-linear analysis of the verses I suspect we will find some images are much more "required" than others.

MF: Thanks!! I really wasn't trying to be right OR wrong--just to maybe think of these things in a better way. But let me be absolutely clear about what I mean by linear. By "linear", I mean that the ORDER of the verses must be maintained in the order they are written in order to make sense of them. Otherwise, they aren't--i.e., they can be taken out of order and STILL be directional. It is not necessary to read them in order of the printed versions to get the same idea or sense of location. There are a lot of directional markers in the Chicago and Cleveland verses--but they don't have to be READ IN ORDER. You can pretty much take them in any order and still come up with the same place--EXCEPT--for the ones that ask you to count or measure something (from right to left, beneath the ninth row, at twelve paces, between two arms extended, etc etc). Shuffling the pieces of each verse might yield a better understanding. Especially in verses like V.3 and V.6 which are filled with a lot of information that doesn't POINT anywhere. But saying that, let's do V. 3 VERSE 3 "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon" This is stated like the start of a logical postulate--an  "if/then" clause. THe only trouble with that idea is that there is no "THEN" or "OTHERWISE" part.  So why start it with the word "IF?" The next statements are even more deliberately obtuse. "Take five steps In the area of his direction." This is a logical nightmare. Let's break it down. IF T. is North of X. take 5 steps in the area of his direction. What is his direction and which one of the men is the his referring to? If T. is North of X., take 5 steps in the area of T's direction.  OR IT CAN EQUALLY MEAN If T. is North of X., take 5 steps in the area of X's direction. But what if T. is NOT North of X? Then where do you go? Because those directions are not even addressed, we must assume that T. IS North of X. But we are still faced with the logical dilemma of the 5 steps and whose direction we take them in! If we invoke Occam's razor here, we will have to assume that since there is only ONE direction mentioned, and no alternative, that not only IS T. NORTH of X., but we are taking 5 steps in T's direction, which is North. So that is the first fuzzy piece we are given. Bad enough. But it gets worse. "A green tower of lights" This can be tied to "in the middle section" which follows, OR NOT. It can also stand alone. Arrgh. "In the middle section" is the next piece, and it can ALSO stand alone or be tied to the phrases both above it and below it, or one or the other of those. Double arrgh! But then the verse becomes more concrete, pointing to an actual location: "Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls" I have put these three lines together because the word "those" refers to something moving--either actively or passively. Either "those" are people passing the coliseum or roads passing it, or some vehicle. Very little else can "pass" another thing. Very likely it does NOT mean people for the simple reason that BP would not have set a marker for a location by tying it to PEOPLE! More likely, he meant roads or tracks or paths, or some walkway or even a bus/car/train line. And none of those can have "metal walls" without bringing up a ridiculous mental image and just being odd--(I realize a road can have walls, but metal walls? Maybe one road would have a retaining wall of metal--but more than one? It's not likely.) So let's assume again that he meant roads or paths, and that it is the coliseum which has metal walls--which is a lot more probable. Next line: "Face the water Your back to the stairs" You can put these two lines together, because they describe a static position.  It's saying "stand here, back to the stairs, and face the water." It does not matter how far away the stairs and the water ARE. It's only a single, static position. Next: "Feel at home" Boy. Talk about VAGUE!  This could mean just about ANYthing from stand at home plate to wave to your mom and dad! The home plate idea has some attraction because of the "coliseum with metal walls" image above, but I really  liked the idea of Mother's Rest Park to explain it. It makes as much sense as anything could. At any rate, this is not a direction. "All the letters Are here to see." These two lines must go together, because they make no sense separately as fragments of thoughts and sentences. So all the letters are somewhere--what letters? Street letter names? A post office? An alphabet? A college? "Eighteenth day Twelfth hour" Referring to Paul Revere? Or to something else? Most likely Revere. Is there are Revere street nearby? A Paul Revere monument or historical marker? A silversmithing shop? A horse farm? A lantern factory?  Or is this out of the realm of direction completely and only referring to the North side of Boston--where T. may be NORTH of X., and where the Old NORTH Church was? "Lit by lamplight In truth," Note I have broken the last line here because there is a very rare occurrence in any verse here--it's a COMMA. And if you do break it here, it changes the overall meaning just a little. Lit by lamplight in truth. Be free. instead of Lit by lamplight, in truth be free. which is really not as clear and unambiguous as the first statement. Especially if this is referring to a casque. You can "free" the casque only if you find the place where it is lit by lamplight in truth. Yeah, it's not really a good way to put it, I know. But I suppose it would be sensible if the damned casque were buried UNDER a lamppost or in the circle of light that lamp makes on some piece of ground. So let's sum up: There's a green tower with lights. There's a lot of letters. You'll feel at home, either realistically or metaphorically. There are stairs and water. There is a lamp to shine light somewhere. It's NORTH in the city, five incremental measurements from somewhere you can see both Thucydides AND Xenophon. Paul Revere has something to do with it, but what exactly, is extremely vague. And somewhere there is a coliseum, an arena with metal walls. Hmmmm....maybe BP was talking about Harvard. Now THAT would make a lot of sense since he and his friends all worked at the Harvard Lampoon magazine--which headquarters may be depicted on the box and look a great deal like that little castle. Also, I guess you'd feel at home anywhere your "alma mater" was. Also, Harvard has a stadium that looks just like the Coliseum. Also, Harvard's motto is "Veritas." TRUTH. Oh yeah...and Paul Revere made a famous engraving of it in 1767...hmmmm.... Well, without VISUAL confirmers here, this is all just a huge amount of speculation. The Image we've used (11) is chock full of images--all for some place in Boston that this VERSE doesn't support. Unless we're in the wrong place in Boston. Or do we use another image? Also--I know that the likelihood of Mother's Rest Park is so far the best interp. we've had. I don't agree though that we don't need the images. I think that there MUST be some specific visual confirmers and they are ONLY contained in the images. They aren't described to any satisfaction in the verses and V. 3 proves that.

Unknown: Hirudiniforme In hindsight, when starting from the correct place and looking around for terms/objects associated with the verse, the purpose of each line becomes clear - and thus gives clear directions. The pseudo-chaotic order of the verses wouldn't be that confusing. Unknown: maltedfalcon So Like your non-linear analysis of the verses I suspect we will find some images are much more "required" than others TY shecrab,great thread idea,and in a nut shell,im thinking these two statements,is what shecrab is trying to convey in part,i think this thread will help keep us on the straight and narrow so to speak

Shecrab.  Awesome. May I put in a request for verse 1 next?

I wanted to take a shot at Shecrab's thought process for Verse 1 . Let me know what you think. Fortress north There's a church just north of the zoo / Hermann Park that looks just like a medieval fortress Cold as glass The Glassel Art institute is just south of the above church as you walk towards the zoo / Hermann Park.  The building is made up of glass blocks that look like ice. Friendship south There is a park just south of the CZ I've been told was called Friendship Park, though I've never seen that sign personally.  There's also a city south of the Park called Friendswood.  Of course the Indians who lived in Texas in their name were called the Friendly Indians. Take your task To the number Nine eight two Keep going south from Glassel and you run into the train in Hermann Park Through the wood The verse has been driving you south. If you continue south you go "through the woods" meaning the zoo No lion fears Well, if you go south through the zoo you go right by the great cats area. You have no fear because they are in a moat? In the sky the water veers Keep going south and you run into the children's zoo. The first thing you encounter is the aqua tunnel, which is underground. As you go down you look overhead and the water is above you and separates (veers) into two paths (left and right).  Once you've gotten to where the great cats area is you can no longer see any of the fountains in the park. Small of scale At this point you come up out of the aqua tunnel and are in the children's zoo, a small scale zoo. You are also at a small bridge. Note you are still heading south. Step across There is a small bridge at this point which takes you to the center of the CZ.  Could also, with the next line, mean to go across the CZ, which would be south. Perspective should not be lost Purely conjecture, but it might mean don't leave the CZ - don't leave the small of scale area.  Note that if you continue south you actually leave both the CZ and the entire zoo. In the center of four alike This is where the directions get specific and fuzzy.  I originally thought it meant to go back to the "center" of the 4 CZ zoo lands (and I've dug there and there's nothing). Others have conjectured that it's in the center of 4 "cinder block men". I just don't know. Small, split, Three winged and slight I'm going to put this on my tombstone.  Some have conjectured these 4 things are NOT the four alike. No idea What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight Quote from Hermann Melville's Pierre (Preiss was a book publisher and well read as we all know). Might just be a further hint to Hermann Park. Don't know Falls gently In December night No good answer.  Once I thought it meant temperature so I dug by a thermometer that hung on the building.  Snow? There's some data that says that there was a llama named snowflake but nothing I've ever seen. The llama pen is in the same area. Looking back from treasure ground There's the spout! If this points you to the location, there's two spouts you could see. One is the elf fountain which means the treasure is back there near the southern exit. The other is the spout in the Aqua tunnel, which again means that the treasure is back in that same location. A whistle sounds. If you are back in the southern exit area of the CZ, you are right by the medical center and various businesses.  There was a bread factory back there that had a whistle that blew at break and quitting time. The ambulance area of the medical center was back there. So you can see, I'm leaning towards Shecrab's theory that it's a sort of non-linear set of directions that goes from general to specific, but then throws in some general verse to either confuse or confirm where you are. wilhouse

I was reviewing all the posts in the V 1 thread for an analysis of this verse. I did come up with one or two things, otherwise, I have to say I agree with 99% of Wilhouse's pull-apart. But before I get into what I have discovered, I have to make a couple of comments about this V. First, there is NO DOUBT it is Houston TX, and NO DOUBT it is in Hermann Park; there are too many confirmers, the most effective of which are the Hermann reference and the 982 train.  There are a couple of problems with analysing this V. A lot of the links from 2003-4 do not work anymore. A lot of the pics are not there. The zoo has undergone extensive remodeling. Those three items are making this solve, which ought to be easy since there is SO much information that has been confirmed, a lot harder. That said, let's get to it. VERSE 1 Fortress north I didn't know about the church, but if W says it looks like a fortress, then I'm there with him. He's been there. He would know. And it makes sense. Cold as glass Glassell works for me. Friendship south There are two interps of this line. First of all, the most broad one--Texas' motto is "Friendship". And it is a southern state. But why go from the specific to the really really broad? That didn't make much sense to me. The other interp is that there is a "Friendship Pavilion" in the garden center within Hermann Park. That one could be more pertinent. Honestly? I don't think it matters either way. It's not a locator, per se. Basically this is drawing a line from the church/fortress to the Friendship Pavilion. North to South. Sensible. Take your task To the number Nine eight two Our best clue. The number 982 Santa Fe Steam train, now moved to another museum location in Houston, that was in Hermann Park when BP visited there. The train was moved out of the park in 2005. Through the wood No lion fears Again, I'm with W on this: the wooded area you go through on the way to the zoo. In the sky the water veers Aqua tunnel. Gotta be. Small of scale Step across Here's one of the differences I found. Yes, the train is/was there. Yes, the zoo has a children's section. BUT...the big train was across from a MINIATURE train. The mini train is still there, and takes children on a ride throughout the park and around the zoo. Perspective should not be lost. I think this is a throw-away line, just telling you not to leave the miniature train station behind too far. This is one of the things you can see from the end of the Northernmost part of the walkway--see below. Now here's where it gets odd. In the center of four alike Four whats? Well, that's the rub. From many extensive examinations of the zoo and environs, there doesn't seem to be anything that there are FOUR ALIKE of. Except for one thing:  When you enter the park itself from the North, you come upon a walkway that leads to the Sam Houson statue, which has a long reflecting pool behind it. At the beginning of this walkway there are a set of metal posts-- four alike. But you can't DIG there--bcause the posts are set into a concrete/brick walking path! However--you CAN see smack through the MIDDLE OF THEM. two on each side--and what you SEE is the Pioneer memorial obelisk. Okay, it looks like absolutely nothing in the Image--BUT--that's not what we're supposed to look at ! For just beyond that obelisk, you see the pavilion that marks the entrance to the Houston Zoo and the pavilion where the miniature train station is! So what does this line mean? It means that you are to LOOK in the ZOO for the casque--because that is the only thing you can see "in the middle of four alike" that has any potential for being a burial site. And not only that, but then you read this: Looking back from treasure ground There's the spout! A whistle sounds. Okay--why skip the lines in-between? Well, first of all, they mark the place with the quote from Herman Melville--as Hermann Park. Then they tell you to look BACK from treasure ground! Why? Why look back? Because the VERSE NOW TURNS UPSIDE DOWN. Talk about non-linear! First it marks a line--from North to South by mentioning two major landmarks that are easy to find: Glassel and Friendship. Then it tells you to find the 982 train. Then it tells you to find the MINIATURE train. But you could read all this and still not know WHERE to go--What train? Where? The verse has to backtrack and get you into the place itself--so it does. It "looks back" and says--"oh yeah, by the way--the casque is in Hermann Park. Use THAT as your major area. The trains are there. You can find the beginning of the line from North to South by using the fortress church and the Glassel art Institute, but then you have to END that line somewhere--and the other end would be the zoo--which is the only place you would be able to look BACK TO WHERE YOU JUST CAME FROM and see the spout--(the geyser in the middle of McGovern lake) and hear the whistle. Now--the location of the casque. This is a real B***h. (sorry!)  Because it depends on finding this: Small, split three winged and slight And so far, there is only one thing I've ever found that fits that description perfectly: a tree called Nuytsia floribunda, otherwise known as an Australian Christmas Tree. This is not a pine. It's a flowering tree, which has bright orange flowers which bloom mainly from October through January (the Aussie summer.) It hasn't been cultivated widely here, since it doesn't successfully grow well outside it's native habitat--BUT--Houston's weather being what it is, and December being pretty darn WARM there--it might just do fine in Houston--especially if it was being cultivated in a GARDEN center...or a controlled arboretum---such as are present in Hermann Park. You can wiki this tree and find pictures. Would it have been there then? VERY possibly. Would it still be there now? Maybe. It's flowers are: small, split, and three-winged. The tree itself is "slight"; only gets to about 10 m high at the most. It's branches are thin-ish and laden with these beautiful 3-winged flowers in bright bright orange. It would be very noticeable if it was in bloom when BP saw it (IF he saw it.) And if it is there, the casque is somewhere near that tree. This might also explain the "December night" quote--and why it is in there. Because the rest of the verse is not directional, or helpful--except to get you to Hermann Park itself. And the only line that makes absolutely NO sense at all is the line: What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight Which, from what I have read, is about Melville's father--but which doesn't seem to have any bearing whatsoever on the casque location. Except maybe for this: the Pioneer Obelisk memorial--which is dedicated to all pioneers that made our country great. In  other words, to the men and women who we might say "we take to be our strongest tower of delight." THat's only a side-thought though. I don't believe it has anything to do with the casque's location. You can certainly see the zoo pavilion if you are standing at the obelisk, and you can look through the "middle of four alike" and see both zoo pavilion AND obelisk together (looking a little like an upside-down umbrella!) and you can also catch the mini-train there, and see the whole place , then if you stand at the obelisk and "look back" at the zoo, you'll see the spout AND hear the whistle. So maybe... This V is the first one--I don't know if it was the first one BP wrote, but it just might be. Not much thought was put into pinpointing a location. I think maybe we need the Image to do that, not this verse--but this verse will literally help you scribe a single straight line from North to South through the entire Hermann Park complex. But the closest the VERSE will get you to the casque is to the miniature train station. So, Looking at the image again, in the bottom center there is a curved line with cross-hatch marks--like a child's version of a railroad track. (child's?--tracks? Hmmm...) and above it and slightly to the left of that little curve is the JEWEL. That location works for me. Oh--it's also at the base of the column where the giant ball is. That's a Kugel Ball--a large granite sphere which rides on a thin film of water. There's one at the park. I'm not sure where it is, but looking at the image, it appears to be the marker for the jewel. According to Wiki, the ball in the park is at the museum of natural history--but according the park map, it's far across the park by the playground. Either way, the lat./long. for that ball noted in Wiki is EXACT: 29/95. Here's a link to the map: hxxp://www.hermannpark.org/pdfs/HP_map.pdf So...does this pinpoint a location Wilhouse? Can you triangulate to the casque with this one?

Okay...further research has noted that the Kugel ball did not appear in the park until 1995. AND...it is by the Buddy Carruth playground. Now--was there another stone sphere sculpture in 1980? If so where? Also, it is not the museum of Natural History, it's the Natural Science museum. Sorry for the errors. And there is one more thing. If there WAS no ball in the park in 1981, then that ball is a bluff. And you wanna hear something really ironic? Herman Melville wrote a poem called "Ball's Bluff: A reverie" in 1866. We might be looking at a monumental literary JOKE.

shecrab wrote:: The other interp is that there is a "Friendship Pavilion" in the garden center within Hermann Park. shecrab wrote:: And the only line that makes absolutely NO sense at all is the line: What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight Fortress north Cold as glass Friendship south Take your task To the number Nine eight two Thank you! That explains a lot. I agree with the need for a non-linear approach to verses, and I was wondering whether these opening lines were things close to the casque location near the garden center. "South" could go with the Southern Pacific 982. I'm not convinced about the fortress yet. The four small, split, three-winged and slight, like the "last touched and first seen standing", seem to be the only other things that can't be accounted for in some way. Reminds me a bit of the "shell, limestone, silver salt", and I was wondering if some of these words might have appeared on signs or something. They're not necessarily a description of the "four alike". It's subtle, but it makes perfect sense. In a general way, it ties in with Hermann and the Moby Dick games. More specifically, it directs the reader to an invocation in the same passage to the three Fates, Lachesis, Clotho and Atropos. The Atropos Key stands between the zoo and the Garden Center and has a plausible image match. The Garden Center has several other matches which I've been begging people to consider for about a year without success, like the genie square with its five cross-hatches... ...the star which ties in with starlight falling softly at Xmas... ...and the general overview with the sandy U shape beside the bunkers of the golf course... ...not to mention the actual word "center" on the building itself...

I'm going to disagree with you WR about those crosshatches. I don't think BP would have seen that view of the parking lot in 1982, and I'm not even sure it was THERE. But if you just take those little marks for what they really look like: a CHILD'S drawing of a RAILROAD track--it makes perfect sense.  The children's train is still there and circumnavigates the entire park and zoo. But more to the point--I think this particular SHAPE is a particular CURVE of those tracks. And that it's going to be the only way you can locate the casque, since there really are no other directions on where to dig. Just the image, the track and the ball. Also, the tree in the image is a very accurate depiction of a live-oak tree, branches leaves and all. There are plenty of live-oaks in the zoo and environs. I'm also not buying the "starlight falling" thing. I just don't think that's relevant, and I don't think it matters. No offense or anything, I'm just disagreeing. :-)

shecrab wrote:: But if you just take those little marks for what they really look like: a CHILD'S drawing of a RAILROAD track--it makes perfect sense. It also bears repeating that this is the common symbol for train tracks on a map.  You could interpret this to mean pointing directly to the 982 locomotive or the miniature train running around Hermann Park (whistle sounding and all).

bigmattyh wrote:: It also bears repeating that this is the common symbol for train tracks on a map.  You could interpret this to mean pointing directly to the 982 locomotive or the miniature train running around Hermann Park (whistle sounding and all). Exactly right. It's one of those obvious clues that ought to be taken at face value, I believe. And for those who think the casque might be at the Mecom fountain: the fountain is at the entrance. That would make it the first thing you saw--and if you try to follow a line from North to South, you won't get further than the entrance. I don't think the fountain is a player.

As they are it looks like the curve and come to an abrupt stop as if going int a tunnel or depot.

Just a random thought here: Byron Preiss wrote and published a large number of books on the Universe and astronomy. It was an interest of his that shows in his prolific essays written in some of these books. Therefore, it is not beyond my imagining that he was drawn to places where there were planetariums. FOY park is one. Hermann Park is another. And the verse for Houston mentions December--so does Verse 11.  (Pass two friends of octave in December)--could he mean 12? Twelve appears in Verse 3, (18th day TWELFTH hour) and in Verse 5 (White stone closest at TWELVE paces). Maybe if he had mentioned 12 in the other two verses it would have been more noticeable--so he substituted December. Also, we know that there is a TIME in each painting--and of course, all clocks are based on 12. Perhaps these are DIRECTIONS--Twelve being NORTH. Perhaps many of the numbers mentioned are directions. Just some random thoughts.

shecrab wrote:: Just some random thoughts. Yup.  And it's never really been fully settled how these numbers/times/months figure into solving the puzzles.

shecrab wrote:: I'm going to disagree with you WR about those crosshatches. I don't think BP would have seen that view of the parking lot in 1982, and I'm not even sure it was THERE. WhiteRabbit wrote:: It's highly appropriate that BP quoted The Ambiguities. This book throws them like confetti, sowing confusion and argument. People seize one interpretation and reject all others. Gh, cast in copper, green towers, North of Xenophon, Lane Two Twenty Two... The aqua tunnel is one of several references BP probably had in mind, others including fountains, jets of steam, Moby Dick and aerial photographs. It's only when the jigsaw fits together that you know which ones to keep. shecrab wrote:: First, there is NO DOUBT it is Houston TX, and NO DOUBT it is in Hermann Park I'm pretty sure the semicircular parking lot was there, though I don't know about those markings. I'd like to find out. I think things have gone a bit too far with the "no Google aerial views" line of thought. It would have been perfectly simple for BP to photograph or envisage and sketch something like that from ground level or a nearby building. As for saying, "it's not that, because it's the train tracks"...this is a misleading kind of thinking. It's what I was addressing here: The book is riddled with double meanings, and it's deliberate . JP combined things from multiple photos to create a montage. The images and lines have multiple applications. They can refer to several things at once. Sometimes they converge; sometimes they confuse. But saying "It's this therefore it's not that" holds back the process of solving them. We need to keep our options open until it all fits together. I'm glad you didn't add that there's no doubt about the zoo, because I think an interpretation entirely in terms of the zoo is nonsense. It's one good image match and a lot of verse-bending. It's like insisting the NY casque is on Liberty Island. Unfortunately the reliance on a non-comment by BP and the "case closed" attitude has derailed this one beyond hope.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I'm glad you didn't add that there's no doubt about the zoo, because I think an interpretation entirely in terms of the zoo is nonsense. It's one good image match and a lot of verse-bending. Number one, it's not entirely within the CZ; you just end up there.  There's reason why this theory might be incomplete -- again, most obviously the fact that the hunt is 30 years old and most of the old markers are gone -- but this theory does a much better job of trying to tie the verse and image to real-world markers, and those happen to be in the CZ. Calling it "nonsense" just makes all the other theories look worse in comparison, because the CZ is still head and shoulders above the rest at this point.

shecrab wrote:: Just a random thought here: Byron Preiss wrote and published a large number of books on the Universe and astronomy. It was an interest of his that shows in his prolific essays written in some of these books. Therefore, it is not beyond my imagining that he was drawn to places where there were planetariums. FOY park is one. Hermann Park is another. And the verse for Houston mentions December--so does Verse 11.  (Pass two friends of octave in December)--could he mean 12? Twelve appears in Verse 3, (18th day TWELFTH hour) and in Verse 5 (White stone closest at TWELVE paces). Maybe if he had mentioned 12 in the other two verses it would have been more noticeable--so he substituted December. Also, we know that there is a TIME in each painting--and of course, all clocks are based on 12. Perhaps these are DIRECTIONS--Twelve being NORTH. Perhaps many of the numbers mentioned are directions. Just some random thoughts. I think you bring up some good ideas.  I did the same thing in referencing his wider work but met disagreement, but I think it might help to understand the author's other work better in order to appreciate his work on The Secret. Looking to extract directional information out of things like time and date is tricky.  Thinking 12 means north is just one of many conventions.  In image 2 I had the idea to take the Sumter Clock as a clue about military time.  That inspired me to consider the verse line with May 1913 as a military time version of 7:13.  That angle between the clock hands looks exactly like the angle depicted of about 4 o'clock.  The idea of looking up a date where sunrise or sunset occurs at 7:13 was a step to consider and since we don't know if it's AM or PM we have four possibilities, one of which was in the month of May.  (sunrises in Jan and Dec, and Sunsets in May and August).  Sorry for that detail, but it's to suggest the process where the image is blended with the verse in that particular usage of TIME.  I'm not saying all instances of TIME on the other pairings require this application, but I believed it worked in this case where it leads to a direction and possibly a precise spot based on a simple chart in the Farmer's Almanac.

erexere wrote:: but I believed it worked in this case where it leads to a direction and possibly a precise spot based on a simple chart in the Farmer's Almanac. Then we know this is not a real solution because it requires the Farmers Almanac to solve it and we know all you need is the Picture and the Verse.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Then we know this is not a real solution because it requires the Farmers Almanac to solve it and we know all you need is the Picture and the Verse. Are you then refusing the use of maps and all books of quoted reference?  Do you not understand that the Farmers Almanac is as practical in use as the Atlas or Dictionary?

erexere wrote:: are you then refusing the use of maps and all books of quoted reference?  Do you not understand that the Farmers Almanac is as practical in use as the Atlas or Dictionary? As a requirement to find the actual spot, Yes. As an adjunct to general knowledge about a subject no. There is a difference between knowing a quote was written by Robert louis Stevenson or Hermann Mellville and looking at page 272 of Treasure Island to find how many paces to step west and dig...

So, what you are saying is referencing a book of fiction is applicable to a finding a real solution and looking up the time of sunset in a common reference publication is dubious? I dont think you should equate any book quote with general knowledge.  Picking up a Melville book vs picking up an Almanac is no difference at all.

except that you could solve the verse without any knowledge of melville at all its just ar redundant site confirmer, saying Hermann, not very important at all. however using the almanac to determine the exact spot to dig is excluded by knowing all you need is the verse and the picture. One is integral to solving the puzzle, (not allowed) One is tangental to solving the puzzle (okay)

Okay, i can appreciate that set of rules, but you risk narrowing your view to be on safe and rigid grounds.  I wont argue further with you about this because I see you disagree with me on a general principle.  I honestly thought you were feigning ignorance.  I believe Preiss has shifted the grounds and a measure of adaptation is necessary. (removed)

erexere wrote:: but you risk narrowing your view to be on safe and rigid grounds. Realize, I have been working on this for decades, I have tried compass headings, shadows, methods from every other treasure hunt I can find. Cryptography, rebuses, anagrams, letter transposition, image manipulation.  Because of this hunt I have read everything Mark Twain wrote, (seriously everything) and a bunch of Robert Louis Stevenson. I have learned more about the History of San Francisco, Chicago, Roanoke and St. Augustine than I would have thought existed.  I have dug for casques in California, Florida and Virginia.  However I really didnt make any progress until I decided to try out one theory: MY Theory There is only one solution that is used accross all images/verses. While each image/verse combination might have unique features (rebus, anagram, quote). The overall methodolgy is going to be exactly the same.

I totally respect that.  I offer an alternative without meaning it as a challenge to your own methods or importance.  Lets work on finding casques together.  I helped the best i could on your SF dig and its okay with me that you didnt follow my recommendation.  I believe you should try whatever works for you. Shecrab, do you have an analysis for Verse 9 in the works?  I find your work very inspiring.

People might argue that we havent found enough casques to be sure. however 12 casques = 100% 2 found casques = 17% which is a huge statistical sample, compare that to the samples they use to forcast elections... but really I consider Houston confirmed, if not found. if one casque = 8.5% of the overall solution lets just give Houston 7% That means we have  sample of 24% - that means under 1/4 of the solution is known. Knowing that I looked at the 3 "Knowns" to find similarities., by applying those methods to Image1 and verse 7, I beleive I am very close to the casque. If so, we would now have a sample of 33%. And remember our sample is random, so out of 12, 4 being set up exactly the same, indicates to me the odds are stacked against there being other methods... If there were different methods the odds that we would find 4 the same are farfetched.

erexere wrote:: Lets work on finding casques together.  I helped the best i could on your SF dig and its okay with me that you didnt follow my recommendation. Actually I beleive you did indicate the spot I think the casque is located before me or anybody else considered it. next to the tree, in line with the arch, the flagpole and fort point. and I will be going back shortly to re-dig and enlarge the hole down to a depth of 4 feet. ( I found out they added soil in that area)

Nice, I hope you're right.  Also, I totally respect the statistics.